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Requested move 17 July 2015

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust The Homunculus 19:12, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Cārvāka → Charvaka – Lay readers unacquainted with Cārvāka and unfamiliar with IAST's c/ch scheme (will) pronounce it Kār-vāka instead of Chār-vāka. While many scholarly sources do prefer the IAST spelling, others, particularly those (like Wikipedia) that find a more general audience, prefer to not confuse their readers. For example, Upinder Singh in her university textbook, Romila Thapar in her Early India, DN Jha in his Ancient India, et al. all prefer to avoid IAST in their books for the mainstream and use Charvaka instead of Cārvāka. Encyclopaedia Britannica does too and in my opinion, so should Wikipedia. This will keep things clear and consistent, and avoid needlessly misleading/bewildering readers.

The IAST spelling can be retained as a parenthetical pronunciation guide linked to the IAST page. Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 12:46, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: For the reasons stated above.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 12:46, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I agree. Even Adi Shankara's page is called what it is rather than Adi Sankara. -Mohanbhan (talk) 13:38, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: For reasons stated above. Soham321 (talk) 15:15, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Has the advantages listed by Cpt Haddock and no information will be lost since IAST transliteration will be available in the first sentence. Abecedare (talk) 15:25, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - NGRAM shows nearly three times the reference usages of Cārvāka to Charvaka (it does not distinguish between macron and non-macron vowels). It's not a common English word like "Mahayana" and "Theravada" and we should use IAST, as its entire purpose is to provide a solid transcriptional system. Do we abandon Pinyin because it uses funny letters? Do we abandon Vietnamese because it has diacritics? In addition, are we seriously suggesting there are a lot of lay readers unfamiliar with IAST reading about Cārvāka? Kind of an obscure subject. Ogress smash! 20:14, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Either Charvaka or Carvaka. The latter is also common (see [1] Stuart Hackett (1979), Oriental Philosophy: A Westerner's Guide to Eastern Thought, University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN 978-0299077945, pages 195-197; [2] Purusottama Bilimoria (1990), Hindu doubts about God, International Philosophical Quarterly, Volume 30, Issue 4, pages 481-499; [3] J Noonan (2012), Materialist Ethics and Life-Value, McGill-Queen's University Press, ISBN 978-0773539648, page 4; etc). I have no particular preference between the two, till both spellings are mentioned in the main article somewhere. Wikipedia article titles should avoid diacritics and special characters, particularly when reliable sources use alternate spellings with regular keyboard characters. The spellings with diacritics and unusual characters should be included in the main article, from RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:00, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - because it is in accordance with WP:NCIN, which should be the primary reason here. This policy also specifies giving the IAST transliteration in the lead. Imc (talk) 19:17, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - The vast majority of the Wikipedia readers are unfamiliar with IAST, and IAST overuse makes things complex to read. utcursch | talk 16:02, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - English transliteration of Sanskrit words is well-established. We don't need IAST for page titles, which makes life complicated in various ways. - Kautilya3 (talk) 17:14, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support common Indian English spelling. Redtigerxyz Talk 06:23, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A section on sources

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I think this article will do well to have a section that explicitly lists some of the main primary sources of our current knowledge on Charvakas. We may even separate the sources as those that explicitly mention or deal with Charvaka views, and those sources where we need to infer a viewpoint as being those of a Charvaka. Candidates may include works like Sarva Darshan Samgraha by Madhavacharya. We may also have a separate list that gives the works that we know were written by Charvakas, but are now lost. As it stands, the Origin section is vague and rambling. Manoguru (talk) 09:48, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Manoguru: Indeed, including names of known primary sources on Charvakas would improve the article. That should go into the Works sections, not Origin section. Madhavacharya is already mentioned in that section. If you have additional reliable source on Charvaka original works, please add. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:34, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Ms Sarah Welch: Yes, noticed that. I think the list of sources should be placed much higher up in the article rather than at the bottom. It would confirm to standard scholarly practise. There are other work that deal with Charvaka other than Madhavacharya, such as the one by Adi Sankara (or at least attributed to him) who too wrote a philosophical compendium, though maybe not as well known. Anyway, I will add them when I have more time at hand.Manoguru (talk) 09:12, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Edits by @117.192.216.201

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@117.192.216.201: Please explain why you are deleting Rigveda, with the edit comment Nasadiya Sukta. This Sukta is in Rigveda. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:19, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Ms Sarah Welch:That hymn itself does not define charvaka philosophy but reflects early agnostic thought rather than atheism or materialism. Yes, that sukta is in rigveda but the hymn is late within rigveda, which is not mentioned. Same hymn could be used to point out agnosticism in Jainism or Buddhism but it would not be accurate. It would be appropriate to add "late Vedic-period" or Śramaṇa movement as Charvaka flourished along side Jainism and Buddhism.117.192.216.201 (talk) 04:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@117.192.216.201: Will you be happy if we add late Vedic period along side Rigveda, in that section? This article already mentions flourished along side Ājīvika, Jainism and Buddhism. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 05:00, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Ms Sarah Welch: It would be appropriate to add Śramaṇa movement rather than Rigveda since there is no particular hymn in Rigveda that refutes the Vedas itself or proposes materialism as valid thought. Since we only know about their existence through Jain, Buddhist and later Hindu texts, Śramaṇa movement would be appropriate. This is also keeping in mind that it belongs to nāstika school of thought rather than āstika. 117.192.216.148 (talk) 17:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@117.192.216.201: It seems you have personal views/wisdom/prejudice on this topic. You are free to believe whatever you want, but we must ignore your beliefs, and we need reliable sources before we can add/revise something in wikipedia articles. If you identify page number(s) and reliable source, that has not been included in this article, it will be helpful, and we can then add from that source. Please note you must provide external reliable source, not wikipedia links as you did above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:00, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Ms Sarah Welch: I don't have any personal prejudice regarding this topic. I looked at the source but there was no mention about Rigveda but even if we consider Sukta hymn to be important aspect of early agnostic thought then we still need to add "Late Vedic-period" along side Rigveda like you mention before as it's late within Rigveda. Most sources i found in google books connect Charvaka school to Sarmana movement, which flourished during late vedic period. 117.192.216.148 (talk) 23:09, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User at @117.192.216.*: I have reworded it, and added a source. We can't write "late Vedic period" as that is vague and can mislead the reader. The Sukta is likely from ~1000 BCE, while Vedic period continued for few more centuries. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:34, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Changes to the lead

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@151.67.84.90: / @151.67.*.*: You re-arranged the lead with this edit, you deleted this well supported sentence from the lead: "It is considered an example of atheistic schools in the Hindu tradition", and you introduced unsourced commentary (WP:OR) into the lead. Please explain your concerns and sources that support your changes. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:29, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, i didn't mean to do it. I'll revert it.--151.67.71.216 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.67.71.216 (talk) 21:03, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

New studies

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